FILM-MOI (MOVIES/TV)
Lily Wachowski: "You’ve got to hand it to Christopher Nolan for casting Elliot Page in The Odyssey. That right there is the definition of allyship, and the fact that Nolan is going out there, talking up Elliot about how awesome he was to work with speaks volumes about him as a human being..."
Variety: Elliot Page recently said in an interview that he’s not getting calls after “The Odyssey,” despite delivering a much-heralded performance in a movie that’s on track to make $2 billion. And the reason he’s not getting calls, despite being an Oscar-nominated actor in one of the biggest movies of the year, is almost certainly because he is trans.
Lily: "You’ve got to hand it to Christopher Nolan for casting Elliot in the first place. That right there is the definition of allyship, and the fact that Christopher Nolan is going out there and talking up Elliot about how awesome he was to work with speaks volumes about him as a human being. But who is following suit in the industry? There are people out there who have the power to cast trans actors, but what the fuck are they doing? Are they so inured with the system that they’re burying their heads in it? Seems like it."
Nolan isn't my favorite director in the world, but it is optimistic to see a titan in the industry give love to Elliot. I'm going through my own late twenties gender crisis right now, and it's a scary time to even give those thoughts the energy they deserve. The level of hatred and ignorance towards trans people right now is abhorrent. I'll take all the allies I can get.
You are a beautiful soul, and no matter what transformation you may or may not pursue, this world needs and wants you in it, full of joy and living your absolute best life. There are horrors, but there is also so much wonderment and celebration. Sending love, fellow gender criminal <3 <3
I went through it in my early thirties, with a baby. I'm now navigating my actual transition with a second baby. The political climate around it all is messed up and often hostile. The amount of energy it takes to do or think about any of this is unreal and I don't think most people realise that. Stay strong, there are often allies in unexpected places.
You know what the saddest thing is? That crisis you’re having, those big questions that you’re listening to? All of the hatred and ignorance is because these people are so terrified of admitting to having those same questions. Questions about gender that have been baked into our heads since birth. So they quadruple down. Because if they allow anyone else to live their life questioning this then it’s harder for them to ignore what they’re afraid of. It’s also why all this bioessentialism crap has been rising.
gotta love those late 20s gender crisises. im amab and a tall construction worker but im also probably a trans girl or at the least fluid, debating whether or not to transition bc of the political climate and also insecurities, its been a fun experience.
I wish you the absolute best, from one at least fluid to another! Incidentally, this climate is why I started having more questions about myself. The casual transphobia in my life made me stop and wonder what my certain people in my life would think if I was more than just a tomboy. What would they think if I told them about the lifelong disconnect between me and my physical body, or how it's more than just short hair and loose clothing to me? Would they be more empathetic due to knowing me, or would they think I'm a freak and a predator? It made me really come to terms with leaving some people in the past in order to embrace my own unknown future.
good luck! my gf came out 4 years ago and it can be a lot. she is so much happier now and more present/real. make sure you have some support/trusted people who ground you while you figure this out. the first couple of years can be a lot.
one of the big reasons she didn't come out until her 20s was people pleaser fawn response stuff. she learned to hide herself and her needs to survive her home situation. if your reasons or situation are at all similar please please please extra make sure to have safe people around that will support you and call you out on your behavior because there can be this period of "I'm finally doing what I want for myself. fuck everybody else" that comes from leaving high control situations. it can be accidentally harmful and self destructive.
this isn't unique to late transition trans people and it isn't something every trans
person experiences. it's just something I've seen happen. similar things can happen when someone leaves cults, high control religions, cultures, or families.
good luck on your journey wherever you end up. labels exist to serve you so if one no longer fits then don't be afraid to get another one (or to not have one at all)
I don’t think it is a big deal for him. Nolan is simply pointing out that Elliot is a great actor and showed that in the film. I doubt any LGBT stuff factored into it; and isn’t that what we’re all going for? Elliot is just as normal as any other dude that auditioned for the role… except he got it over the rest.
That’s certainly the way it should be but in today’s climate, casting a trans person will always involve a discussion about whether you want to actually be seen as an ally and some directors just… don’t want to be. Art is political. Being trans shouldn’t be political but it is, and it means a lot that Nolan made the choice to let Elliot shine.
I have my qualms with The Odyssey but I really like that the cast is naturally diverse, that those discussions were likely still had but the actors were ultimately chosen for their abilities like you said. I want more movies like that.
Elliot was great in his role. My only issue with his casting is that he turned from a 12 year old boy to a 40 year old man within a 9 year time skip. It’s a movie with men turning to pigs though so I can suspend disbelief
It made me think of Come And See, how the protagonist of that looks so visibly aged by the end after only like a week or so of experiencing war. Page doesn’t look anywhere near as drastically haggard, but like you said, you can buy him being a twentysomething who’s been fighting for ten years straight
Yea, makes me think of that photo set of soldiers before and after going to war. Motaz Azaiza’s (Palestinian journalist from Gaza) hair got pretty grey in a short time too. Stress ages you quick.
But casting is not about actual age, and this needs to be understood. Casting is about what sells and embodies the character, the bio age of the actor is irrelevant. He does look younger, so he suits younger parts
Eh, this movie also has five million year old Matt Damon playing Odysseus who I think was supposed to be like in his 30s iirc(?). The ages of this cast are all over the place
10 year at war. 10 years to get home. If Odysseus was thirty when he left home, he would be 50 when het got back. Estimates are between 45 and 55. Obviously he shouldn't be played by a young actor, because he's at least 35 at the start of the Odyssey and at least 45 when het gets home.
Robert Pattinson character presence was a 20 year-ish time skip so no. Odysseus was traveling another 10 years before he gets back home. All the scenes of the suitors are the ‘present time’
I agree totally. Great performance but too old. I think Tom Holland looked a bit too old for his role too.
As you said though there were many other unrealistic elements so the age thing wasn't important. For me it was 3 small ships holding the hundreds of soldiers that were killed. They would be slaughtered but then at the next landing hundreds more would be slaughtered. Where tf are they all coming from!
I agree. I hadn't realised why I wasn't buying jt before and was seriously questioning if I'm Anti-Trans. It was the laugh lines, I feel secure in that now.
Yeah, I kinda wish the most famous trans man in Hollywood was allowed to play a man his age in the biggest Hollywood movie this year. Hopefully this will pave the way for more appropriate roles for trans actors in the future.
To be clear, nothing was inherently wrong with the casting, but imo it could have been more right. Trans men tend to be infantilized. I don't think Nolan was consciously intending this at all, to be clear. Just would have been nice to see Page playing a man his age.
I'm aware of that. It's why I'm not saying Nolan is the worst for this. It's just unfortunate casting, because it bolsters a preconceived notion about trans people. This was good, but I believe we can do better.
Elliot looks younger than he is so he can get away with playing younger, same as his cis peers can/do. As a trans man myself I totally understand what you mean when it comes to infantilisation but I think it’s important that he’s treated as the man he is as well as being trans, if that makes sense.
I also hope he gets to play closer to his actual age at some point though! That’s refreshing to see with any actor. The fetishisation of youth and fear of growing old that media perpetuates is a whole other conversation.
love or hate nolan, the way he propped elliot up throughout this movie - from production to release - proves true ally ship. it's the LEAST we can do for trans people. lily is right. who IS following suit? this industry is one many get into for the love of the art, but it is driven by money and greed. we are going to continue to have an uphill battle for equality and fairness for all in the pursuit of the arts.
So true. Nolan really did him a solid by looking out for him and putting some juice behind Elliot's name. All for good reason, because the intro of the film had me mesmerised and locked in with Elliot's opening.
The beauty of Nolan, beyond his craft and the stuff everyone raves about, is that he genuinely does not give a fuck or pay attention to the internet. Whether it's beneficial to his film or not, he does not pay attention to that shit. The man prints out his emails, LMAO.
That's how we get as diverse and talented a cast as we got for the Odyssey. Other directors and studios would pay attention to the BS of the internet, or worry about offending someone for some inane reason, and we would get a lesser cast for it. Nolan and Universal didn't, and their movie is going to make close to $2 billion, if not surpass that mark.
Barbie in 2023 and the Odyssey this year are good lessons for studios. Hope they pay attention.
It's something I've realized more and more in this "era". None of the internet discoursereallymatters. Sure, it generates some controversy and sometimes people caught up in the controversy can respond to it in poor ways, but it really does not matter.
The people in the real world rarely ever take the stuff discussed on the internet into anything they do in the real world, and sometimes aren't even aware.
Exactly, great points and callouts. On every end of the spectrum, these films or shows have had some controversy that will ultimately not affect viewership of the film or show.
I'm not commenting on any of those controversies in a positive or negative way, just that none of those controversies have actually affected whether the viewers of those projects will watch or not.
And two of those examples show the limits of English-language internet discourse in cases of globally popular figures. So many people refuse to understand that Michael Jackson's crimes and Rowling's hatred are not even known by a big chunk of the world.
Ya, I know some people that complain about 'woke' or some shit and I'm like, "But in real life, like are you actually running into any issues? This is only a thing online, just go touch grass, literally."
Also to add that Nolan was full of praise for the Barbenheimer thing, even though he was more than likely pissed about the studio fuckery that led to it.
Which, as a sidenote, I find it hillarious that because of that meme, the worst filmbro-type guys you know went to watch a feminist musical about (among other topics) toxic masculinity; only to then have to sit through a three-hour dialogue heavy thinkpiece about the terrors of war.
I liked him in umbrella and think that’s the sort of category he does his best work. This giant drama in a sea of amazing actors is definitely not where he shines though, it was really apparent for me that his chops were not on the level of his peers in this movie.
UA was trash by the end and I blame his dwindling performance on that. I like Elliot as actor. I also think he’s really funny! Someone please cast him in a comedy!!!
I actually thought Elliot was great in the film. He and Samantha Morton(and to a lesser extent, Robert Pattinson) actually disappeared into their roles unlike Charlize Theron, Matt Damon, and Anne Hathaway, all of whom were serviceable but made me feel like "oh, I am watching Matt Damon acting" rather than "I am watching Odysseus."
Oh god she was the worst one. The fact that she was styled in a fishnet sweater and looked like she wandered off the set of a catalog shoot didn't help.
Backhanded transphobia like this is so common towards trans men like we get it you dont want us to exist and work and be visible and you need to make it our fault or something so you say we are talentless and unable to act or sing or make art despite evidence to the contrary
He hasn't been cast in anyhting else and is currently out of work so I guess you got your wish congratulations
Im sure the Hollywood star who threatened him wirh rape and has likely been working behind the scenes since Elliot mentioned the threat in his book to Blacklist him from Hollywood will also be super stoked at you working for him for free
I was never super impressed by him, but I think a lot of that was bc he was typecast into these quirky roles. IMO his acting has been better since he transitioned.
I also think that if one of Nolan's favourite actors was a trans woman she would not be as well treated because Nolan writes women so terribly. This might be one of those cases of a trans man being treated better by men post-transition.
That's just like, your opinion man. Juno, Hard Candy, Whip It, Inception, My Days of Mercy, Beyond: Two Souls...
Feel like his career was more impacted by coming out as a lesbian in 2014, and then later calling out Brett Ratner for sexual harassment than his supposedly poor acting ability.
Right on the one hand visibility is meaningful, on the other hand Page is like, an okay actor. He has never had the best range. That said the only way to improve is to keep getting roles, right? So I hope this leads to more work for him.
And points to Nolan for being inclusive in casting when it would be easier not to. But I would care more about his work if he could direct a movie with like an actual 3D woman character who exists as more than just a plot device for a male protagonist’s character development.
I think Elliot was always going to have a hard time with this part of his career. When you're not the hot young thing anymore, roles are harder to find. Samantha Morton has said the same thing, and she's an easier "type" to cast.
A man of indeterminate age with a gamin look is a hyperspecific type of role, he doesn't come to mind as some Joe Schmoe. And much has been said about the decline of mid-budget movies.
>A man of indeterminate age with a gamin look is a hyperspecific type of role,
Funny you should mention that, my favorite scifi author (Adrian Tchaikovsky) has a page on his blog where he fan-casts his novels, and for The Final Architecture the Tyrant Philosopher series he fan-cast Elliot as one the protagonists (and having read the series, it absolutely fits).
Unfortunately, despite being a relatively(?) popular scifi author, I don't think any studio is willing to throw a bunch of money at Mr. Tchaikovsky to bring his novels to life on the big screen with his fan-castings (see the Children of Blood and Bone fiasco).
But if they did, damn, Elliot would crush as the lead for that series.
That's the thing. Projects like that are showing up on Apple TV, and have to have a creator/showrunner/producer with clout. Vince Gilligan gets to make Pluribus because of Breaking Bad and BCS. Severance got the attention of Ben Stiller and his production company. Similar story with Widow's Bay, Silo, Foundation. And Apple has actual money to burn, but it's worth it to them to build out a streaming library.
Movies-wise, it's low budget sleeper hits or massive franchises only, or will be soon. The industry has ditched rom-coms. Genre hits with an actual budget have to absolutely blow up or they are seen as flops.
I will never insist anyone "has" to like any Nolan movie or it's viewpoints. But let's not pretend Nolan hasn't been this guy for a while.
Tenet was a James Bond movie featuring a black lead.
Oppenheimer spends 90 minutes showing the "logic" of slaughtering innocents only to tear it to the fucking GROUND in a single scene, and ended with the title character condemning himself for his actions.
Hell, Dunkirk's thesis statement is that "survival alone is a victory when the world is trying to erase you." That doesn't resonate right now?
Odyssey opens with a POC as the fucking Muse. It has Nolan's most diverse cast in his history. It's about an American-accented white soldier who served an evil king for 10 years and was tortured by the gods for it; oh, and he knows his actions have likely ended society as he knew it.
Criticize his clunky writing all you want. The man is throwing spears at targets we need hit from as many angles as possible.
My one (well to be fair there are probably more) gripe, is that he doesn't know how to write interesting parts for women. But at this point it's sort of just an accepted criticism.
Elliott stole the whole movie for me. Beyond phenomenal performance. I hate that he almost has to “prove himself” again as an actor. It’s BEEN know that Elliott is fantastic. Give the man his flowers 💐
Love allyship. Love Nolan. Love Elliot. Still did not think he was right in this role, and his niche is more satirical comedy.
I think his issue with being cast at this point is less about his gender (idk I hope) and more that he’s trying to lean into these bigger dramatic roles and frankly he’s not that good at this genre-
When he got shot in the opening sequence of the odyssey the acting there was so crazy to me that I laughed which was not the goal. I really think he excels when he’s showing off the drier sense of humor so comedies and tv are where he’s going to shine and do his best work
you can't get cast in dry satirical roles if no one is willing to cast you in anything and i think that no is calling because of his gender.
in another part of this thread someone says that it makes sense that he can't get roles because (an actress of similar age) has talked about how hard it is to be cast when you "aren't a hot young thing anymore". that's not usually a problem male actors have (or at least not to this degree).
i don't think he's specifically seeking huge serious dramatic roles. i think this is just the only offer he's gotten. i went and checked out his wiki. he had steady work until he came out in 2020. After that, it was the last seasons of umbrella academy, projects he either was a producer or executive producer for, a supporting role in an animated series where he plays a woman, a short film, and The Odyssey.
maybe work slowed down and never picked back up because of the pandemic? maybe work slowed down and never picked back up because he's trans? maybe a combination of both. i just doubt that his gender has nothing to do with it.
I'm glad it was a movie like The Odyssey. It wasn't a story about a trans person. He didn't play the role of a trans man. I know those stories are important, but it's just nice to see trans people in other roles. Especially in roles like this where he wasn't any different than any of the other men playing soldiers. He's just one of the guys. We need more of this.
90% chance that transphobia is the reason he's not getting calls. I think giving all the other possible reasons a 10% slice is generous enough considering the current political and social climate.
Part of that 10% slice IMO is that... The guy was in the movie for like 5 minutes. Not a lot of time to wow people as a supporting character. Especially not when RPattz and John L. were actually good supporting actors.
I’m a short trans masc, and I have to live in society everyday, but can we please not be transphobic with people’s heights? I don’t see (could miss it) anyone but transphobes going about trans femmes being the “wrong” height for roles or whatever else. Let’s be better
Studios are scared of the internet incels and bending the knee.
Weirdly, I think incels actually look forward to there being some casting that they disapprove of because then they can form their mob and just spend months/years circling around that target and upvoting and laughing at each other's hateful comments/jokes about that person.
There is another perspective to this - Nolan is most certainly an actor's director. And when he finds actors he likes, he tends to continue to give them work. He's very loyal to them. So, on one hand, he found a role that works well for Elliot, and gave it to him. Nolan also, wisely, ignored and dismissed all the profoundly idiotic controversy surrounding it and did not engage with such foolishness.
But Elliot's role was extremely minor, and was likely provided due to a previous professional working relationship. I would be surprised if Elliot even auditioned for the role. This was not a character that was ground breaking, impactful, or frankly, deep enough to show Page's acting depth. That may also pay a role in him not being cast in large projects.
That, and the Odyssey was released very, very recently. Who knows what may come down the pipeline for Page in the next month, or even year?
What a great interview. Extremely cool that Lily is more or less putting aside her ego and using her energy to mentor young queer and trans filmmakers. Sad that she can’t get projects funded herself but awesome that she’s not accepting defeat. Can’t wait to see what comes out of Anarchists United 👏🏻
I agree that the bar is so low lol, but I love Christopher Nolan and all his interviews about Elliot are just about how great he is to work with and a great actor.
I literally came out of that movie thinking Elliott had one of the best supporting roles in the show, icl I didn't really love Rpatz in this role because to me it felt like he was overacting while Elliott was more believable.
It is actually so cool to see him having such a prominent role in such a big film like this. It made me feel so hopeful. This is how you open doors, and this is how you actually change things, by existing and ocupying space
It’s awful the way people treat Elliot. Before transitioning, Elliot was popular, seen on lists as beautiful, and a muse for a few popular works. I’m eyeing those “friends” now because they’ve made little effort in bringing Elliot up or giving him work
Yup its classic thing that happens to trans men and mascs when we come out:
We lose people who suddenly dont care, you're suddenly not valuable and everything that people previously complimented you about suddenly it never existed or it becomes an insult and now you retroactively always sucked and don't deseve to be seen or to exist
But its toootalllly not transphobic because they didn't call you a slur or misgender you "omg trans men are sooo sensitive why do you even transition if you're going to complain like a woman?!"
And then its "why are no trans men feeling safe here ? it must be their own faults because they're selfish misogynists who transitioned for male privelige trans men never contribute or do anything useful so its actually NBD if we push them all out and its not transphobic because trans men arent really trans they're bound to detransition and betray everyone any day now"
A lot of people even cisgender women who call themselves feminists have an incels view of trans men and mascs and cannot get the fuck over us not repressing to be fuckable women for them and see that as us hating women or womanhood and think 'punishing' us for that wirh harassment isnt transphobic
Sadly it probably more to do with his height, than being trans.
He's a tiny guy, it's difficult to cast him as a lead in many films.
It sort of rules out action, please no Tom Cruise comparison.
He's not your typical romantic lead.
Really serious acting roles are ideal, unfortunately how many of those are made each year.
It's sad that it is that way, but we have to accept reality. I probably is honestly nothing to do with his transition.
Elliot is one of the best actors in Hollywood. If gal gadot and Jared Leto keep getting work and Elliot doesn't than there is only one reason. If your bigotry would have you watch Gal for 2 hours over an amazing actor you are delusional.
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Nolan isn't my favorite director in the world, but it is optimistic to see a titan in the industry give love to Elliot. I'm going through my own late twenties gender crisis right now, and it's a scary time to even give those thoughts the energy they deserve. The level of hatred and ignorance towards trans people right now is abhorrent. I'll take all the allies I can get.