This shit is so bad for America. Needlessly inflammatory post. Everybody can note how great it is for his achievement without going full blood quotient and deciding for Ben who he is.
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s iconic "I Have a Dream" speech, delivered on August 28, 1963, at the Lincoln Memorial
Here in America, if you're mixed black/white and you have enough African physical features, most non black people will treat you as black.
Within the black community though? We have some colorism issues. Sometimes "light skins" are seen as more superior because they are closer to white and other times "dark skins" such as myself are more superior because we're "actually black"
Sorta like Andy Murray being Socttish or British depending on how well he's doing.
Sunday though? The black community across the whole melanin spectrum will see Ben as black. Even Francis 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Heck, the media always treats Tiger Woods as black, and he’s only 1/8 black! And this is despite the fact that Tiger himself self identifies as multi ethnic (he 50% Asian btw). Sometimes the media just does what they want to do because they want to tell a simpler story for effect.
I think both his parents had some other ancestry. I remember reading his Thai mom was part Dutch and his African American dad was part Chinese and part Native American but half-half is probably closer than saying he’s only 1/8 black.
Tiger Woods’s is 1/2 Black, his father was a Black man with normal/average levels of European admixture that all Black Americans have. So Tiger woods is half-black not 1/8th black. Where the fuck did you get that info from?!
Honestly as a white man it’s amazing how much support I’ve seen across social media for players like Ben Shelton as well as coco gauff, Naomi Osaka, Taylor Townsend, Frances tiafoe and etc
Being white it’s easy to not think about these things but seeing what these players mean for representation in a sport that hasn’t always been inclusive is really incredible and frankly inspiring to me
That’s why it irritated me so much when people were upset over Naomi osakas Black dinner, like are we going to act as if those players don’t face unique challenges being Black in any space but especially in tennis?
And just as a human being I love to see all of this. I just hope those players know they mean a lot to Black people and even to random white dudes like me
It's also funny how one finalist, Mr.Shelton creates these skin/race discussion a.k.a "is he black enough" amongst one group of idiots, while the other finalist Mr.Zverev creates ethnicity discussions a.k.a "is he German enough or still Russian" amongst the other group of idiots across the Ocean.
From my end I can only observe and respect both guys regardless of their skin, race or ethnicity.
Shall we call Monfils a Guadelupian now every time and mention that he is French only by nationality or is it only works for Sascha for some reason and not for thousands of other immigrant children in tennis?
Jessica Pegula is half Korean and nobody brings it up because she identifies as white. Naomi Osaka identifies as Black. And that's how society treats her.
You got it dead on. We've only had a couple generations of legal equality here, so it's going to take a minute for us (in this case black and white) to actually feel that equality. But despite some hurdles, it's obviously always getting better with time.
Ben has more than a little bit. His father is Black. White people created the rule and only want to change it when a Black person accomplishes something, as in Obama or Ben Shelton. Half white criminals will be called Black. JussieSmollett is biracial. None of the racists called him white.
…yes, it literally came from slavery to ensure the slave owners could impregnate their slaves and the children would be legally slaves with no claim to the estate. Those scars don’t heal quickly, so America still operates under a one drop rule.
this is being highlighted bc black people have been underrepresented the entire history of america. so when someone has black ancestry it helps represent black people.
it’s kind of the same way europeans make fun of americans claiming to be Italian. They aren’t fully italian but they have italian ancestry and are connected to that. Can the same not be said for mixed black/white people?
I hope this isn’t an offensive thing to say… it doesn’t seem like it would be, but I don’t really understand American culture. So apologies if it is…
I genuinely didn’t realise Shelton was black until someone made a comment about it. I can’t recall who it was or the context, but I was very confused at first.
Colorism is a byproduct of racism. Slave traders charged more for mixed race and lighter skinned blacks as part of the American caste system. Many blacks, like Indians and Latinos, allow this indoctrination to persist because the larger society continues to perpetuate it.
The thing is the vast majority of black people don’t even watch tennis so no they won’t be seeing him as anything on Sunday. And they probably will never know who he is.
I look forward to days of discussion about the nuances of whether Ben Shelton counts as black or not from people who are definitely equipped to have this conversation (and the compulsive interjections of “lalala I can’t hear you I don’t see color”).
I’m genuinely curious about how Ben identifies racially. When he was asked about Arthur Ashe and the impact Ashe had, he talked about how his dad wouldn’t have been able to play during that time, but he didn’t really connect it back to himself or mention how those same barriers would’ve affected him as a Black player. I just found that interesting.
I cannot speak for Ben (obviously because I am not Ben), but I'm also mixed race and lemme tell you, that's kind of a tough question to answer lol
Many black/white mixed race people in the US have their blackness questioned constantly. This gets further complicated when you have a black dad/white mom versus a white dad/black mom. And then you have the non-US people wondering, "why does this even matter?"
The after match interview definitely doesn't provide the adequate time to dive into the nuance of race identification : /
As a biracial person who is also very close in skin tone to Ben, I would guess that he's dealt with a lot of bullshit about race in his life and I was impressed by his response given his age. It's very likely that he sees himself as neither black nor white but having to deal with the implications from both sides. Only he can provide that answer though and honestly, he could still be figuring that out.
It's pretty damn complicated. It's how you were raised. It's about the relationships with both side of the families. It's about your skin color and your hair and the assumptions people make you, often when you were just a child. It's about the community you grew up in, where you went to school, what friends you had. It's how much money your parents make.
So yeah, "how do you identify" is a crazy loaded statement that even many adults aren't comfortable answering until they're in their 30s or 40s. And of course some people just don't think about it much. For others it's a huge existential problem that is at the center of how they understand the world and see their place in it.
Because it doesn't matter how we feel, society chooses to treat or perceive us a certain way, usually in whatever way is in their own best interest (in my personal experience anyway)
That makes sense, and I definitely wasn’t trying to question his Blackness or imply that he has to identify a certain way. I’m biracial myself, so I understand how complicated that can be. I was more curious about how he personally identifies because of the way he answered the Arthur Ashe question. Since he specifically mentioned how it would’ve affected his dad, I just noticed he didn’t include himself in that thought. But I agree that a quick post-match interview probably isn’t the best setting to unpack something that nuanced.
No worries, I didn't think you were questioning his blackness. I often wonder if I were in his position, would I have said something similar? Maybe he recognizes some privileges he has by being "ambiguous" enough to get by. I kinda laugh at the amount of people who will be like "he's half black?!" when it was so very obvious to me.
I would say as a mixed black man that has a white mom, a lot of people in the black community think if you have a white mother you are less black or don’t stand for the black community as much compared to someone raised by a black mother. It’s not overly important I’d say overall, but in the eyes of some black people you aren’t “as black” if your mom isn’t black.
That’s really interesting. I came to the US from Canada 20 years ago (originally from Caribbean). I’m black and my kids are biracial black and Latina (Mexican). I’m a single mom at this point but I put them in Spanish immersion from preschool through 8th grade so they’re pretty fluent Spanish speakers. As teenagers they tend to more strongly identify as black since they really only see my side of the family and are estranged from their dad. I think they still identify as both but they lean more strongly to their black dude because of their strength of family bonds. I was also more close to my mom’s family growing up than to my dad’s.
Phew that’s a loaded question in which I’ll do my best to answer without diving in too deep into American race politics.
In short, mothers are more likely to pass down their culture to their children. So a BM/WW relationship will produce “white” biracial children while a WM/BW relationship will produce “black” biracial children. (This is a gross generalization that I don’t necessarily agree with but, unfortunately, some people do!)
On top of that, the racial implications of a black man being with a white woman is wholly different than a black woman with a white man. But that’s too much to discuss on a subreddit made for tennis lol
There are plenty of written works or video essays you can read if you wanna dive deeper. Again, this is speaking in the general American experience. Not all countries apply race politics the same way.
I think he mostly references his grandmother and father because they were the ones that faced the difficult racial hurdles in life that ended up providing him the opportunity to be where he is today. It is more of an acknowledgment that if it wasn't for them overcoming that, he wouldn't be where he is today. It is a very mature answer to have that awareness. It isn't so much about how he identifies or what struggles he's endured, but about the acknowledgment that his elders had to endure so that he could succeed. Having his dad there as his coach too has to be such a proud moment for his entire family. At least that's the way that I interpreted his response.
Not to go all “as a black woman” here, but I really think the one drop rule is shifting with the current generation. I see it with biracial 2000s babies in my family who are way more likely to identify as mixed. They definitely see a distinction between how they’re perceived and someone with 2 black parents. But their older counterparts born in the 80s and 90s are more likely to call themselves black because that was the social norm.
I think Ben is just being factual. Arthur Ashe won in 1968 a few years after Jim Crowe ended. By the time Ben was in 1st grade Obama was the front runner for President. He paved the way for people like Ben’s dad. It’s hard to conceptualize previous generations. Ben didn’t face the same kind of adversity his father did, and his father didn’t experience was Ashe did.
Same when Eubanks brought it up tonight in the post match interview. He immediately deflected to his dad, thanked his mom too, and then dedicated it to his grandma.
I think he isn't comfortable fully identifying as black because he hasn't really faced much of the historic setbacks black Americans had faced in the past. He grew up in a well-off family and neither he or his sister seem to have carried much of his dad's genes.
I’d agree with this take. Impossible to know of course without directly asking him, but he’s white-passing. I don’t mean to downplay his race, of course he is black, but his upbringing compared to someone like Foe’s is like night and day
Honest question from European here so please be patient - can you even say “of course he is black” if we don’t know if he identifies as such? Somebody told me once that self identification is the most important factor but maybe that’s relative
You can’t really be transracial. A Japanese American can’t say they’re Latino just because they grew up in East Los Angeles. So self-identification has huge limits.
i get your point and somewhat. with race being a social construct, people do identify with what other people categorize them as and move through society in that way. we’re often categorized before we even have a chance to self identify really. but then again i do know some mixed people who feel they are black regardless of how they’re perceived, because they have a black parent. i feel it truly does depend
I do, that’s just one persons opinion though. Completely fair if you feel differently. He’s still on my tv right now sitting next to Andy Roddick and they have quite similar skin tone. The hair gives it away a bit but now I feel weird for nitpicking his appearance on this level lmao
I have this "game" with my (white) friend where he'll send me a random celebrity and be like "is this person half black???"
I think it's a lot easier for black or mixed-black people to identify when someone is half black. The hair can definitely be a giveaway. It's that kinda dark, but not necessarily black softer curls.
Yeah lmao what is that comment. If that were the case then no wealthy american black person who hasn't faced much of the 'historic setbacks' of black americans would ever identify as black. Shelton may not care that much about racial politics because he's conservative. But maybe he does, this is all just based on him giving credit to ashe via his dad, which is a great way to honor both men
Ahh okay, that adds more context. I only saw a short clip during the match, so I didn’t hear the part where he talked about his grandmother. That makes his answer make a lot more sense to me. I was reacting to the snippet I saw where he mainly referenced his dad.
Im half black and grew up very closely with black friends and my family in the south. Growing up I would identify as mixed fervently just cause I got tired of people that weren’t black asking what I was. Black folks always know, but then it’s a crapshoot how they view you (just black vs mixed vs lightskinned AA vs ‘not white but don’t push it’).
Now I identify as either mixed or black. Personally I look more “black” then Ben, I do sometimes say the n word around other black folks, am close-ish with my dads family and my AA and mixed friends, and the one drop rule still applies. Meaning - I’ll never be white, but I’ll always be black. I’ll never be able to hangout with the woods on a prison yard, or be treated nice in a sundown town back home. And if that’s how it’s gonna be, that’s fine. I love being black. I’m proud of my moms English ancestry and think it’s interesting too. But if we went to California state prison, I know what side of the yard I’d have to be on.
And so much of AA history and culture is built on lightskinned and mixed people. Diane Nash, the Debarges, Walter White, WEB Dubois, Adam Clayton Powell, Lena Horne, Key and Peele, Prince, Barack, Mariah Carey, Kaepernick, the list goes on. Some of these people are evn lighter or more “passing” then Ben who is CLEARLY mixed black. And if Ben grew his hair out, or got a boosie fade, or talked deeply about his background, and didn’t take pics with Vivek, this would be way less of a convo. So it’s rly what you make it here
The answer to Eubanks was indicative of the ambiguity, while Eubanks was of course eager to pin the identity label Shelton in reply demured to family and USA patriotism, whether it's down to his politics or how he "passes" only he really knows.
I don't think Chris was trying to gotcha. Shelton himself has said that he wouldn't be playing if not for Arthur Ashe's legacy. And he and Chris are good friends.
Im not American but I don't think it's that weird. It's been less the 200 years since most black Americans were slaves and 100 years since black people were regularly lunched to keep the terrorised. A few generations back. There are still far too many people with deeply ingrained ideas of racial superiority
It's a different context to Europe, where it's been a long time since African slaves were common.
Just a question, but when you look at him, do you immediately figure out he's mixed? How?
I am Italian, my skin has a tone similar to his, I have black eyes and black hair. If I saw someone looking like him around in my town I wouldn't have a second thought.
All the “enlightened” non-Americans claiming not to see race here have got to realise that you should staggeringly ignorant right? No one cares if you claim to not see race
Black man? Where is he???? (It’s a joke guys, as a mixed race guy we can never be identified with either side. Being mixed is basically having identity issues)
Well, actually, black men and black women both majorly did not vote for Trump. But the majority of white men and majority of white women voted for Trump.
Shelton is black by his father and white by his mother, so he's 50/50, why can't people accept that ? And Tsonga is also 50/50, and he has stressed that in his interviews.
I grew up internationally and then in Connecticut. The people that think they are the holiest supporters of black people are the same people that will call the cops if they see a black person on their street.
America’s original sin was slavery, which was race-based. Slavery and its aftermath shape so much of American history. That’s why we make the distinction. It’s still worth mentioning because we’re not too far removed from it. Ben’s grandparents grew up in a segregated America.
man i dislike americans but you europeans got to understand that america is a different society than yours come on. "i couldnt care" yeah i bet you don't you didn't grow up there
Hey let's all debate his racial identity! This sub is really gross sometimes.
I'm biracial myself and Ben's the only one who should be making this call and if he doesn't choose to say anything, people should respect that. It can be a very complicated thing for the individual.
I'm 1/2 black and 1/2 Indian but I've always identified as Black. I've got three biracial kids and it's the same for them, even though their skin tones are much lighter than mine.
This thread is just a bunch of people being racist and hiding behind an anonymous profile.
I see you friend. It's not just this thread - it's a lot of other threads. It's Ben, it's Osaka, it's Radacanu, even Pegula sometimes. And it's shameful
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